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 Post subject: Re: Dont have to worry about the feds taking guns, states wi
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:54 pm 
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So, only the 2nd amendment is outdated? Because I am pretty sure the one that allows women and non-whites to vote is outdated also. And that stinky one about probable cause to show a reasonable belief for a need to search your home or property is pretty passe. And that stupid ass Preamble about Life, Liberty (of all things!) and the Pursuit of Happiness is certainly way over aged. And the self evident truth that we are born with unalienable rights is so not worthy of consideration because our rights are really privileges granted to us by our ruler until they see fit the remove them. I got it. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Dont have to worry about the feds taking guns, states wi
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:06 am 
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It's sad that people can whine and complain about other rights being eroded (as I have every time), yet when the 2nd amendment is under attack they don't care. Other people didn't care about THEIR favorite freedom being eroded, so they aren't going to stand up and help keep someone else from losing their favorite. Boo hoo! Take your ball and go home! All this talk about nobody doing anything and crying and whining, but when there really is a legitimate chance for the masses to wake up and see what's going on, they just talk about the past. Whether you like it or not, all of the Bill of Rights are tied together. They must all undergo the same process to be removed or modified. Go ahead, keep encouraging a new ConCon. In this current "pro-NDAA" "pro-Drone" climate, don't act all butthurt when the entire Bill of Rights is simply scrapped or neutered.

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 Post subject: Re: Dont have to worry about the feds taking guns, states wi
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:25 am 
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Guitar wrote:
Why is it you suppose the NRA won't let the CDC keep records of shootings? Think about that!

http://factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/

Where'd these guys get all their CDC information, make it up?

The CDC has very sporadic records on different gun shootings. They wanted to make a recored of ALL reported gun shootings nation wide, a comprehensive report and the NRA objected.

Here is a quote from that very page:

“We really don’t have answers to a lot of the questions that we should have answers to,” Sorenson.

In part, she said, that’s because the gold standard for scientists — a randomly assigned study in which you gave one group of people guns, and another none — is simply not possible.

There is work the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention could and should be doing, she said, but has not since the late 1990s. CDC has been wary of studying gun issues after NRA lobbyists convinced Congress to cut into its funding after a series of studies in the mid-1990s were viewed by the NRA as advocating for gun control.

What kind of study is CDC not doing? “The kind of information we need at the policy-making tables,” Sorenson said.


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 Post subject: Re: Dont have to worry about the feds taking guns, states wi
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:44 am 
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zenrider wrote:
So, only the 2nd amendment is outdated? I got it. Thanks.


Where and when did I ever say just the second amendment is outdated? I never said or implied that. There's probably plenty in the Constitution and Bill of Rights that could be improved.

I just said that the second amendment is outdated and should be clarified or amended to reflect the reality of todays world. Not a time when a bunch of us COULD forcibly overthrow our government with a single shot, muzzle loading musket!


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 Post subject: Re: Dont have to worry about the feds taking guns, states wi
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:00 pm 
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There is a portion in the oath our elected take upon assuming office. That portion states they promise to "preserve, protect and defend," the United States Constitution.

Preserve means to keep it from being gutted, abrogated, altered against original intention.

Protect means to not allow law makers to do any of the above by vetoing any legislation that destroys our founding principals.

Defend means to stand up and speak out in favor of our principal document to domestic and foreign adversaries that want to make it obsolete, irrelevant or benign. This also means using veto power when necessary. It also means that when the Supreme Court says you broke the law, then you stand before America and appologize and reaffirm your commitment to uphold their judgement.

None of that oath means the President just writes out a bunch of decries that he suddenly declares them to be laws like they have been doing for the last 20 years.


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 Post subject: Re: Dont have to worry about the feds taking guns, states wi
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:11 pm 
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There is work the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention could and should be doing, she said, but has not since the late 1990s. CDC has been wary of studying gun issues after NRA lobbyists convinced Congress to cut into its funding after a series of studies in the mid-1990s were viewed by the NRA as advocating for gun control.

What kind of study is CDC not doing? “The kind of information we need at the policy-making tables,” Sorenson said


Not just the NRA but many citizens stood against the pseudo-science proposed to monitor gun anything by the CDC. There is no link between gun accidents, gun collecting, gun shooting, gun policy, gun sales, gun possession or gun transportation that has anything to do with disease. So what possible intent or authority would the CDC have to spend any money on the study of firearms? Without thinking too aweful hard, we can see that they are trying to create a link to establish gun ownership as a disease that needs to be treated, cured and stop it from spreading. What other possible purpose could be served by the CDC? Center for Disease Control. Center for Disease Control. Center for Disease Control.... Center for.. Control.. There is no Disease.


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 Post subject: Re: Dont have to worry about the feds taking guns, states wi
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:14 pm 
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The CDC is concerned about the public health of our nation. They monitor health trends and dangers.

If there is a rash of suicides, that is a concern of theirs. They investigate why certain people are killing themselves, and then how the are doing it.

So they SHOULD be able to report that most suicides are done with guns. Or that most are done with legally owned guns. It's part of their concern about the publics health.

Also if there is a trend of people killing others, THAT too should be able to be reported, even if guns are used.

ANY health and safety concerns of the public are concerns of the CDC.

IF there is a rash of gun murders/suicides by users of psychotropic drugs ANYWHERE in the IS, I certainly want to know about it.

"Freedom of speech" is our most sacred freedom. THAT is what our founding fathers wanted us to use our guns to protect!

WHY SHOULD the NRA keep the CDC from documenting ANY trend involving guns that threatens Americans?

When is keeping important info from Americans a good idea?

Americans SHOULD be able to hear how many people are killed with guns each year.


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 Post subject: Re: Dont have to worry about the feds taking guns, states wi
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:39 pm 
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Stony, I agree with you that the CDC should be allowed to study gun trends. Because, that will surely point out that the amount of mass shootings is not caused by guns, but by those who are mentally unstable. The TRUE culprit here.

But the whole problem is NOT the NRA. It is the US Congress. THey have stopped any funding for the CDC to do this. Why, you ask? (Well, you probably wouldn't ask because you already know.) THe Congress, both houses, is run by lobbyists. These guys are terrified that they won't get any money from the NRA or the gun industry and be re-elected.
These are the same guys that won't rescind subsidies to petroleum companies and are afraid to consider any possibility that fracing could be bad.
It's the same with the financial industry, entertainment industry, and a whole host of others!
In their minds their mantra is, (If I don't do what they want, I won't get any MONEY!!!) They win on financial support, not merit.
Two simple solutions to the country's problems:
Term limits and drastically reduced lobby support of both houses of Congress. Which, of course, will NEVER happen in our lifetimes!


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 Post subject: Re: Dont have to worry about the feds taking guns, states wi
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:24 pm 
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So I checked out the CDC mission statement and some other facts.

CDC receives 85% of its funding through grants. Therefor, grants should not be awarded for "studies" that are obviously not related to disease or scientifically sound on their premise.

Mental health is related to a lot of things, some folks with mental problems could have those problems because of disease. So it makes sense to study mental health as it relates to those problems caused by disease. Especially if it is a contageous or transmittable through genetics type disease.

Nothing forbids CDC from recording the manner of death from suicide. If there is "a rash of suicides" then that MIGHT be related to the mental health of the persons. Suicide is not a disease. What we are concerned with here is trying to create a causal link that simply having access to a gun is more likely to cause suicide. Or that simply having access to a gun causes one to be more likely to use it for violence.

To get a grant for funding, like any organization submitting for grant funding, the CDC must put forth a proposal that outlines the study program objectives, goals and benefits. While reviewing these objectives, it was apparent the CDC was being used as a tool to establish gun ownership as a disease and that gun ownership leads to violence and that gun ownership is a danger to children and that gun ownership is a danger to community. And by treating it as a disease, CDC would make recommendations for policy that would remove, contain or innoculate society from same. So the CDC did not get funding for that. It was not that the funding was cut. They simply did not receive any.

It would be the same if CDC decided to have a study of the disease of automobile ownership. Then draw links to how dangerous automobiles are to children and community. Or study how often automobiles are used in crimes or how often automobiles are used in suicides. Then make policy recommendations to remove, contain and innoculate society from private ownership of automobiles.

Sick people may make bad decisions. That may be studied. Guns don't make people sick. But sick people may do sick things with guns or any other instrument they see suitable for their purpose.


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 Post subject: Re: Dont have to worry about the feds taking guns, states wi
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:27 am 
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First of all the title of this thread is nonsense. No one is taking your guns. Anything bought before a ban is grandfathered in.

Also, to me the gun issue is this simple. Crazy people + Guns = Bad. Crazy people - Guns = Hollywood Helen.

Move on to the next topic already.


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 Post subject: Re: Dont have to worry about the feds taking guns, states wi
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:17 pm 
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Good post Giant!

The "nuts" on the right are calling many people "gun grabbers". People who never have, nor ever will grab anybodies guns! It's funny the extremes some on the right are going to right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Dont have to worry about the feds taking guns, states wi
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:24 pm 
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But stony & giant, the government has done just that. It isn't a physical taking of a weapon, some government agent knocking on doors demanding you turn over your weapon, but rather the outlawing of perfectly safe, lawfully owned weapons.

Would you be willing to live in a country where you can't defend yourself from harm? Where only the criminals will be the ones with firearms? If so, then support these ridiculous knee jerk reactions to a crime that will do NOTHING to curb gun violence. Keep wasting money by adding more and more laws & restrictions on otherwise law-abiding citizens. Creating criminals from air is something the government is good at.

Show me just one good thing other than background checks that any proposed law has accomplished that cuts down on gun violence. Just one. You can't do it but I'll be amused with your attempts.


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