Amendment To Rules wrote: Here are some things we are not going to tolerate on BT and the reasons why.
A. Complaining about other people "complaining". (see purpose of forum below)
B. Discouraging others from posting – For any reason.
Some Notes:
Purpose Of Forum: This is a community discussion forum – The whole purpose of this forum is a vehicle for people to vent their feelings and discuss topics they care about, and sometimes they are not all rosy, “I love Bradford because we have nice trees” kind of topics. Telling people they shouldn't post their opinions, good or bad, is contradictory to the purpose of these forums.
Don't Bitch, Run For Office – There is only a finite number of positions and persons that can hold these positions. It's not possible for everyone who has an opinion to be elected at the same time, so what is the other people that have an opinion supposed to do? Also, telling someone to quit complaining but run for office is contradictory to what people who run for office do, the first step in running for office is complaining about the current system and telling as many people as possible how they would change it.
BT is the perfect venue for them to do it and gain supporters.
Definition – While you see complaining or “bitching”, others see beneficial suggestions or opinions on how things should or could be changed.
Undignified response – Instead of telling people they should just quit bitching, try and respond with an intelligent counter opinion that supports your opposition to their views. All without belittling them for having an opinion or for posting it.
Quote:
"Censorship of anything, at any time, on whatever pretense, has always been and will always be the last resort of the boob and the bigot."
Whatever guitar! We should have figgered you would twist this somehow.
There is a big difference between forum rules that apply evenly to everybody ...... rules that are made to improve the forum, and censorship.
Since we are not in the public square here, there really is not expectation of "freedom of speech".
This is a forum that is owned and operated by a private entity. THEIR rules apply here! We all, by the grace and wisdom of the moderators get to play by the same rules.
Censorship would be if they didn't let a particular person or persons express their opinions (that weren't just personal insults) when they let others express the same kind of things. Or if they banned talk about particular subjects.
For example on "that other forum", they wouldn't let us mention how crappy our hospital is/was, or talk about that creepy "Saturday Sam" guy! THAT was censorship!
We don't need posters coming in here just to make personal insults against private citizens. Public figures are fair game, but private individuals are not in my humble opinion.
There are PLENTY of clubs, secret societies, groups and organizations in Bradford where one can go sit around and make personal insults and talk trash, we don't need to ruin one of the most popular Bradford internet sites due to senseless bickering.
This site has worked well for the past several years. The moderators seem to do a great, fair and balanced job. They should be commended and thanked.
This site is popular, well read and is often the source for breaking news in the Bradford area.
Thanks to the moderators for keeping the "riff raff" out!
Guitar, what topic or topics do you think are being censored?
And do you really want to read a forum that is nothing but mindless personal insults? Constant foolish bickering? We should all be trying hard to stay above that here.
There is a very big difference between having forum rules set forth by the owners, and "censorship" of the users.
Guitar, what topic or topics do you think are being censored?
Quote:
Don't Bitch, Run For Office – There is only a finite number of positions and persons that can hold these positions. It's not possible for everyone who has an opinion to be elected at the same time, so what is the other people that have an opinion supposed to do? Also, telling someone to quit complaining but run for office is contradictory to what people who run for office do, the first step in running for office is complaining about the current system and telling as many people as possible how they would change it.
Quote:
Whatever guitar! We should have figgered you would twist this somehow.
Obviously you and others feel that my thoughts twist what others are saying here. I have never been anything but as factual as I can be and civil and courteous to others here-YOU included. I knew that you would like BTAdmin's admonishment because of my suggestions for you and others to run for office. I have been listening to complaints here, and a serious LACK of workable suggestions for years. If you're going to enact change, you have to seriously participate and not just stand on the sidelines and criticize. You do that with your environmental cause, others with their animal or humanitarian causes. But NOT with government.
I'll go back to Bud Beck, "You get the government you deserve." And I will remain silent in the future.
Don't Bitch, Run For Office – There is only a finite number of positions and persons that can hold these positions. It's not possible for everyone who has an opinion to be elected at the same time, so what is the other people that have an opinion supposed to do?
I somewhat disagree with the quote above. Everyone who has an opinion can run for office and I encourage them to. Then the public has more of a choice of who to elect and maybe some new ideas come forward.
So now let's look at this from an improvement value. From what I found online Bradfordtoday.com domain name was registered on 2004-07-06. So let's say from 2005-2012 the forums have been here. That means 7 years of complaining, insulting public officials,etc, etc... Where has that gotten Bradford? Most of the same issues exist today that did 7 years ago that you all complain about on these forums.
Do people read BradfordToday? Of course. Do officials read Bradford Today? Of course. But I do know for a fact it is not taken seriously by people who could resolve the same revolving issues that seem to be talked about for all these years.
If you really do care about the issues, you would run for office and not just post on a forum and take out a newspaper ad.
When people belittle someone for the simple act of posting an opinion on the forum, without offering a solution of their own, it's basically an attempt by that user to censor the poster or discourage them or others from posting in the future.
Censorship is exactly what these rules prevent. One user attempting to censor another using language meant to bully them into not posting. These rules make BT more of a safe haven to post your opinions without having a mindless attack that offers nothing of value to the site.
No topics are off limits, just the manner in which you discuss those topics. Even this topic of “Discouraging others from posting” is OK, you just can't belittle someone for posting an opinion about it.
Certain people don't want open and free discussion for various reasons. Others are just trying to prove a point, but failed. Their efforts have only strengthened BT's position that everyone, everyone should have the right to post their opinions.
A certain user probably thinks this takes away his right to post an opinion, it doesn't, it takes away their ability to prevent others from posting an opinion. You have the right to free speech, as long as that free speech does not impede someone else right to free speech.
Most of this amendment was already covered, attacking someone or inciting an angry response (trolling), for whatever reason was already against the rules, this amendment just clarifies that an attack that is meant to prevent open and civilized discussion is prohibited.
Guitar wrote:
I knew that you would like BTAdmin's admonishment because of my suggestions for you and others to run for office.
Guitar, it's perfectly OK to tell someone they should run for office to get the change they seek, and that part of it wasn't because you said that in the past. The "note" on that was to show that whether or not a person is running for office, they still shouldn't be prevented or discouraged from continuing to post their opinions (complaints) on BT. It simply addresses when people tell others to quit providing an opinion on BT but somehow run for office without telling the people who would vote for them how they would change anything.
I seem to remember you saying that continuing to post on BT was the thing to do after running for office, so that whole thing does not even apply to you.
Guitar wrote:
Quote:
We need more public involvement and less secret, behind the scenes deals and plans. How do we get that?
You, citizen, and all the other complaining here (and you're doing a FINE job of pointing out what's wrong and complaining about it!) need to:
Run for the offices (or get YOUR kind of candidates running and elected) that you are complaining about.
Got to every council meeting you can and bring up your points and solutions and find out WHY they are not being implemented.
KEEP going to these meetings until you get some satisfaction.
Write letters to the editor, submit op ed articles, send photos germane to your complaints to the Era. (Those past dilapidated building photos in the Era seemed to do some good if I remember correctly.) If they are ignored, publish them here. (I know, a LOT of good work like that IS done here!)
Keep complaining here on BT.
I know this last one is the ONLY one that is going to happen because you are all "too busy" or "council members don't like me" or "Let George do it." (If you remember, George did a pretty lousy job with CE.")
It always seems to me that BT's are saying: "Here's the problem." "Here's the solution." "I wonder why someone isn't doing something about it." "Oh, well! There's nothing I can do except post about it here."
Stony's old MLR editor used to constantly say, "You get the government you deserve!" I think that every time I read criticisms of the City on BT. It's a graphic example of that.
And if I was in Bradford, I would help you with those very things!
Don't Bitch, Run For Office – There is only a finite number of positions and persons that can hold these positions. It's not possible for everyone who has an opinion to be elected at the same time, so what is the other people that have an opinion supposed to do?
I somewhat disagree with the quote above. Everyone who has an opinion can run for office and I encourage them to. Then the public has more of a choice of who to elect and maybe some new ideas come forward.
Musicman, you just said you disagree that everyone who has an opinion can hold office at the same time. How many mayors do you think Bradford has?
Or where you disagreeing with something I DIDN'T say in that quote, that everyone can't run for office at the same time? If that's the case, I didn't say that.
Did you even read the second part of that note?
Quote:
Also, telling someone to quit complaining but run for office is contradictory to what people who run for office do, the first step in running for office is complaining about the current system and telling as many people as possible how they would change it. BT is the perfect venue for them to do it and gain supporters.
Either way, the point was users shouldn't be discouraged from posting their opinion, whether they are running for office or not.
musicman wrote:
So now let's look at this from an improvement value. From what I found online Bradfordtoday.com domain name was registered on 2004-07-06. So let's say from 2005-2012 the forums have been here. That means 7 years of complaining, insulting public officials,etc, etc... Where has that gotten Bradford? Most of the same issues exist today that did 7 years ago that you all complain about on these forums.
The goal and purpose of BT is not to effect change in government or policy or anything. It's sole purpose is to provide an outlet for people to post their opinions, whatever they are, and it has done a good job of doing what it was created to do.
musicman wrote:
Do people read BradfordToday? Of course. Do officials read Bradford Today? Of course. But I do know for a fact it is not taken seriously by people who could resolve the same revolving issues that seem to be talked about for all these years.
How do you know for a fact that something posted on BT didn't change something, or shine a light on topics that where hidden to some people? How do you know for a fact that every single issue or topic, past, present and future will not be taken seriously by officials? Do you have some kind of supernatural ability?
Even though that may or may not be the case, the forums aren't only meant to be a line of communication from average citizens to government officials in order to effect change, it's also meant for them to communicate with each other about these issues and help others learn more about those issues. Effecting change or not, communication with each other about the topics is one of the the purposes of the forum. So again, the forums are serving their purpose.
Plus, how do you know the discussion will not inspire "Someone" to run for office after they read how things really are on the forum?
Now as far as Musicman saying, and I quote him with a cut and paste:
So now let's look at this from an improvement value. From what I found online Bradfordtoday.com domain name was registered on 2004-07-06. So let's say from 2005-2012 the forums have been here. That means 7 years of complaining, insulting public officials,etc, etc... Where has that gotten Bradford? Most of the same issues exist today that did 7 years ago that you all complain about on these forums.
Think about this for a second. Is this a bad reflection on Bradford Today or the "complainers" posting on Bradford Today, or rather, if this is true ..... a bad reflection on those in charge of this town?
"Nothing got better in Bradford for seven years". Do we blame Bradford Today for that? The posters who pointed problems out, or those in charge of handling those same said problems?
IF we go with the assumption that Bradford has been slipping further and further downhill for the past several years, don't you think we need to identify and address specific problems and debate a solution? Find out what is and what is not working? Find out who is, and who is not working?
I walk or ride my bicycle all over Bradford nearly every day and night. I personally see it getting worse and worse. Specific and concentrated projects that "spruce things up" in certain neighborhoods do not fix the more serious basic problems around town.
Many, many problems discussed here on Bradford Today have made an impact on those in charge. Nearly everybody in town either reads Bradford Today, or hears about what is talked about on Bradford Today.
God only knows (as well as anybody with access to the city IP addresses), how many city employees watch BT all day long waiting for new posts to pop up!
Bradford Today does this community a great service. We discuss more topics here, in depth, than you will ever see discussed in the paper or hear about on the radio.
And many different people from way different backgrounds and differing political opinions and from different organizations can participate in civil debate. You can't debate your television, your radio or your newspaper!
I agree with Citizen, good post Stony (wait did I just say that?). It is nice to have a good debate going. So on with the debate.
My post was not a bad reflection on the BT community, but the post was to point something out. If you look back into the archives of the forum, there are posts where it is stated that posting on BT will change and help. Ok, now where is the proof? What has posting on BT or putting ads in the paper get done in 7 years, that if BT did not exist would get done anyway?
It would be great if discussions on there got someone to run for office, more power to him/her. But really the same topics are posted (they maybe worded a little different).
It is easy to sit there and complain, why not offer a solution and don't give me that story that is what our taxes pay for.
I am not saying posting on the forum is bad, but you all make it sound like the whole population of Bradford is sitting by their computer and just visiting BT all day and pressing F5 to refresh for any new posts. Maybe that is why I really did not see anyone walking around Bradford the few days I roamed on Main Street.
My post was not a bad reflection on the BT community, but the post was to point something out. If you look back into the archives of the forum, there are posts where it is stated that posting on BT will change and help. Ok, now where is the proof? What has posting on BT or putting ads in the paper get done in 7 years, that if BT did not exist would get done anyway?
It would be great if discussions on there got someone to run for office, more power to him/her. But really the same topics are posted (they maybe worded a little different).
Discussion on BT does no good? Isn't that really a matter of confirmation bias on your part, because you can't see how more people knowing about or discussing an issue does any good?
Do you really think any change for the better can occur when everyone decides to ignore the problem and become “yes men” to the current situation? And how can that person get inspired by the discussion, if there is no discussion?
If anything, the more people who are aware of a problem, the more good it does to correct those problems.
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